#30 – Joseph Bowie and Ed Partyka

00:00:00: Zurich Jazz Talks: Die Podcast-Serie des Zurich Jazz Orchestra. Heute mit Joseph Bowie.

00:00:06: Joseph Bowie kommt aus St. Louis und hat 1978 in New York die Jazz-Funk-Band "Defunkt" gegründet.

00:00:12: Die Band besteht bis heute, auch wenn sie sich immer wieder in Form und Grösse verändert hat.

00:00:17: Der Posaunist und Sänger Bowie, der seit 20 Jahren in Holland lebt, hat ein Herz für alle Arten von Jazz, so auch für richtig grosse Orchester.

00:00:24: Das Interview führt Susanne Loacker, für den Podcast zuständig ist Pablo Faccinetto, die Leitung hat Bettina Uhlmann.

00:00:33: I think this is one of my first podcast sessions. Really? 

00:00:36: Yeah! Okay.

00:00:38: I've heard about podcast. I think I've done  some online but never a sit-down podcast.

00:00:48: Ed, Joe, welcome to Zurich so good to have you. Joe, this the first for you here with the

00:00:56: Zurich Jazz Orchestra, at least in that podcast. You're talking to a jazz crowd now basically.  

00:01:05: If you had 30 seconds to explain what funk is,  what would you tell them?

00:01:11: Well, I would say funk is jazz. It's the same thing they've been dancing to for the last 50 years. So, I mean, what is jazz? It's  

00:01:21: all... what is gospel? It's just music, it's good music,  and like Duke Ellington said: "There's only two types  

00:01:27: of music - good and bad." How it's done. So we're really glad to have you playing good music for  

00:01:36: us. You guys go back quite a long way.  What do you remember of your first meeting with Joe, Ed?

00:01:44: Well, the first time we did something together was 2011, right? In Lucerne the university, (in Lucerne, the music school)

00:01:49: but it's also here in Switzerland, right? (absolutely)  But for me, my awareness of Joe goes way way back.  

00:01:56: I mean that's where I'm going to divert just slightly because.. well, here..  

00:02:01: I even have a prop. Because in the 1980s, when I was  a student, you know, I was studying, I was a young trombone  

00:02:10: player and when this album came out, right? (right) When this album came out, me and my friends,  

00:02:16: you know, all my studium colleagues, you know, all  those young trombone players, you have to remember,  

00:02:21: you know, the trombone, historically, seen in the  world of jazz, like in the 30s and 40s and 50s, it  

00:02:28: was a pretty cool instrument (right). But what happened was,  you know, at some point in time saxophone and then  

00:02:34: like guitar, those instruments became a little  more cool and by the time we got to the 80s when,  

00:02:41: you know, when I was coming up, the trombone, we weren't, it wasn't that cool.

00:02:46: There's not many trombone.. well, hardly any trombone front men. Exactly, and when this album came out and when "Defunkt", when

00:02:54: you guys, came on the scene, for us young trombone  players, this was all of a sudden like some  

00:03:00: really important s***t. And I don't think - you probably weren't aware of it at that time but - 

00:03:04: for young people, for those of us, it  was like..man, a cool band. So, they're playing great  

00:03:09: music, so funk groove oriented music, the front  man is a singer who also plays the trombone  

00:03:17: and, you know, and so it was like it was just this  revelation for us and it was a big inspiration  

00:03:21: for a lot of us (wow, that's great). And then, when I found out personally also  

00:03:27: your family heritage (right), because I was aware  of your brother Lester before I was aware of you,  

00:03:31: so Lester Bowie, and coming up in Chicago I was a  big fan of The Brass Fantasy (right) and that's  

00:03:37: like: "Oh my God that's Lester's brother." So, it was like,  it was this whole sort of thing that clicked. So, you  

00:03:42: know, so, I've been aware of you and your music  and "Defunkt" since back then. (wow) So,  

00:03:48: that's why for me this is also very, you know, it's  a personal thing to actually get to work with you  

00:03:52: now and that we've been able to work together for years. I'm really glad to hear that, you know.  

00:03:57: Fantastic, yeah. I mean, my goodness, you're making me old. You're just a little.. you're not  

00:04:04: that much older but, you know, you were already.. you  know. So yeah, and the thing is also then, what I  

00:04:09: think, because I, you know, I do a lot of teaching,  and you do as well, but the the fact that,  

00:04:14: you know, a lot of times at the universities and  stuff when we're talking about.. when we're teaching,  

00:04:18: we're teaching the students jazz  and stuff, but it's great to have somebody come  

00:04:22: in and also teach them this tradition because it  is definitely something that a lot of  

00:04:28: young people (they don't have it) - right? They don't get it, the real soul funky tradition, soul jazz tradition.  

00:04:37: Because they don't know anything about playing  in the Chitlin circuit, see? I came up playing in  

00:04:41: the Chitlin circuit. When Greyhound buses around  the South, in the US, with artists like Johnny Taylor

00:04:48: or Tyrone Davis, and everybody was dangerous,  everybody had a pistol, right? And we go on a -

00:04:58: you go in a truck stop back in those days, like in  the the early 70s - well, you know how racist  

00:05:05: America was in those days, especially in the South  and so, I mean, but that's why I wanted to become a  

00:05:13: singer (okay) 'cause I came to New York playing free  jazz mostly, but then during the  

00:05:21: New Wave period the so-called Blondie, James White...  I said: "I got a job with James White,

00:05:29: James Chance." and I said: "Wait a minute, I mean, I need to start singing because singers, well, they make more money."

00:05:42: That is a pretty good reason. When Ed talked about you, he

00:05:46: called your album a revelation. When I  hear him talking, it's a bit of a revolution as  

00:05:52: well because as you said a singer and a trombone player fronting a band. Were  

00:06:00: you aware of that at the time? Did you  actually plan like, a revolution, or was it  

00:06:07: just the way it turned out to be? Well, I always had the attitude. I knew I was a front man, I mean,  

00:06:12: basically like people say: What do you do? I say: "Well I'm not really a super musician but I am  

00:06:17: energy, I'm a spark plug." So, meaning that: I can  bring a band together and I can make them get a  

00:06:27: sound that we're all after, but it's an old tradition,  especially with black musicians in America or  

00:06:34: any musician actually, it's just about creating that vibe. Not just.. okay, a lot of  

00:06:42: people can play music and play notes, but it's an  art to learn how to control the audience,  

00:06:50: to reach the audience, to reach people. It's more  than being a musician. You have to kind of be  

00:06:55: like a humanitarian or you have to be in touch  with yourself so you can touch  

00:07:02: something in your audience. You say you create a vibe. Your band over the years has taken on  

00:07:09: all forms and shapes and sizes. What difference is it playing with like a large Orchestra?

00:07:16: Well, it's is a dream. I mean, 20 years ago  we started the "Defunkt" big band. 1998 was the first  

00:07:25: show in New York City at the Knitting Factory. And then we went on an European tour in 2000 because  

00:07:34: the big van for me was my pension, my retirement  plan. I want to retire because I can stay one  

00:07:43: place three or four days instead of one night. See,  I'm too old for the one-nighters, it's a  

00:07:50: little bit too much strenuous for me physically. But  I've always wanted to be, you know, a funky Frank

00:07:56: Sinatra. (really? okay) That type. A big  band from Jerry Louis, Dean Martin, any one of those  

00:08:07: guys. Because it's visual, it's a  show. I like the fact that the artist look good  

00:08:16: because you're trying to reach those emotions.  The people, you know, the people pay their  

00:08:23: money to see, they don't want to see somebody off  the street, they want to see something special,

00:08:28: an illusion or fantasy, and that's what show  business is to me. And I  

00:08:35: never wanted to be just a trombone player, I wanted to be a showman because it's a  

00:08:42: lot more fun. Well, it's a lot more work too, but... You mean, I do think we're on to something here: Have  

00:08:49: you ever thought of, Ed, of offering Joe like a retirement spot as a singer in residence for the Zurich Jazz Orchestra?

00:08:57: Huh, well, maybe we'll have to think about that. Hey well, it sounds okay to me, you know,

00:09:05: that would be interesting now, would it? But this is  the type of thing I like to do and  

00:09:10: since we started the big band thing, there's little  elements, I mean, Ed is such an amazing musician/arranger

00:09:19: but I think I have something to bring to  come together with him that completes the formula  

00:09:25: for the musicians where they have some exposure to  some old school tradition and, I mean, a  

00:09:32: lot of people don't even understand what  the James Brown breakdown is, see? A lot of young  

00:09:38: musicians don't break down on the one, so these are the things I can bring to  

00:09:44: them and also how to hone your energy  and use that energy the whole night, not just  

00:09:53: peter out. It's got to keep pumping 'till the end. Yeah well, but it's not  

00:09:59: even young musicians, it's just a lot  of jazz musicians - even very experienced  

00:10:04: really great jazz musicians are not used to  performing, especially with this focused energy  

00:10:13: and, I mean, one of.. I won't say where and when, but  we were doing a show with another big band and  

00:10:19: we did the first set and the energy was incredible,  it was really kicking bam-bam-bam. But the problem  

00:10:25: is, is some of the musicians from the big band, they  came up to me in the break and they said: "Hey, can  

00:10:30: you please ask Joe to slow the pace down and  maybe because..?" 'Cause they you know they weren't  

00:10:34: used to be playing so intently, exactly like  that. (all night) Exactly, it was like that. And 

00:10:40: for the audience it was great (right) but,  so, we had to sort of chill it out  

00:10:45: and you had to give, you know, (I started talking more. Is that okay, trumpet players?) because, once again,  

00:10:52: they're not used to this energy, you know. Or what you're talking about...

00:10:56: I mean, how many well-trained conservatory trained jazz musicians know about, you know,

00:11:04: James Brown and this sort of stuff, or Muddy Waters, or.. Or do they know about playing a two or  

00:11:10: three hour set? (yeah) You see, I came up playing TWO three hour sets (yeah). So, it's a physical thing that  

00:11:18: they don't understand. A lot of musicians  never learned, never had the training (yeah) to last  

00:11:25: physically and they, so like you said, they: "Okay, tell Joe to slow it down a little bit."

00:11:32: Yeah, of course and, you know, and it is something  that's sort of gone missing, you know. 

00:11:37: (yeah) Yeah, I mean also something that  was part of my experience when I was growing up,  

00:11:42: you know, playing dance gigs for four hours or,  you know, these long really really..  (six sets)

00:11:49: Exactly. You know, or even longer, starting  at two, no starting at 8PM playing 'till  

00:11:52: 2AM or 4AM, (right) you know, stuff like that. But that's what gives you the chops. But like what Ed said,

00:12:01: this is something that a lot of musicians have missed. Which in one way is good  

00:12:08: that maybe musicians these days don't  have to go through the trials and  

00:12:12: tribulations we went through but it's also part  of paying your dues (right) as a musician and, you  

00:12:19: know, (absolutely) you know, a lot of the  the young generation maybe they didn't have  

00:12:23: that and it takes away something from the music. It takes away something, it takes...

00:12:30: they don't understand the intensity. I told, uh  maybe I shouldn't say this, (don't tell no names) 

00:12:36: (no names) but I told a drummer one night, I said, well he said: "Well, you know, this is a rehearsal, I'll  

00:12:44: get stronger at the gig." I said: "Wait a minute, you  got to play every rehearsal just like you play the  

00:12:52: gig, with just the same intensity or else how  are you going to be in shape for the gig?" (mhm, yeah)  

00:12:59: You don't train playing a rehearsal like "easy".  I play the rehearsal just like.. you play it just  

00:13:07: like you want to play the gig like you train,  I mean, an athlete. You don't take it easy  

00:13:14: at training. That's when you have to develop the stamina. (yeah, yes exactly) The stamina, right?

00:13:23: Or also, I mean, you know, it's like we're living in.. also  the generation of the time we're living in:

00:13:27: Bandleaders are more forgiving, I mean, I don't  know if.. how you're.. (you know I'm not forgiving)  

00:13:34: No, you're not. But when I was coming up I worked with band leaders,  

00:13:38: if somebody was.. in the first rehearsal, if they  weren't playing 100%, (right) they get fired (you're fired)

00:13:46: in a rehearsal and here you could never.  You know, these in the year 2023, you could never  

00:13:51: do that 'cause everyone's so.. you know, I mean, things are.. I don't want to say they're coddled in  

00:13:57: their, you know, but (maybe) things are better, maybe.  But like what does it do for the music? (exactly, yeah)

00:14:04: It takes the level of performance down because there's too much slack. (yeah)  

00:14:11: I mean as a trumpet player you can come to me talking like: "Well I'm tired." Well, go home.

00:14:17: That's another way of firing somebody. Right, you know, like the old rhythm and blues artists like

00:14:24: James Brown or Tyrone, I mean, you start playing some bad notes and making mistakes, just turn around and say: "Okay, 100 dollars,

00:14:33: 50 dollars for your mistake." But that teaches you to  be a little more serious about it, yeah.

00:14:44: One piece of advice for upcoming young jazz musicians from you. Well, be true to yourself, you see, I mean, it's  

00:14:52: one thing to learn how to play notes. But find out  who YOU are because expressing your personality is  

00:14:59: really what a musician is all about. Being able  to convey your personality to the audience and  

00:15:06: convincing them. But in order to do that, you  have to be confident and secure with yourself.  

00:15:17: That's what advice I would give them: Be  true, be true, be true, be you.

00:15:23: Perfect, thanks so much, we do appreciate you being here. Thanks for taking the time.

00:15:29: Thank you. We're looking forward to the gig, thanks so much. 

00:15:32: Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you, sir.

00:15:35: And I think you have an album to sign there for somebody. Okay, that's to sign?

00:15:40: Do we have like an edding or something upstairs? We'll get one.